#ask hamliet

[hamliet]

Excited for your thoughts on the bnha ending

Also I’ll be honest I dropped this like 200 chs ago and I’ve just kept up through your metas because I was so disillusioned with the manga 🥲 I even sold my copies

it's a bit bittersweet to see bnha handled this way. sometimes i think we'll get a promising continuation from the author which is major cope for me T.T

fix its are otw but damn it doesn't mend that it ended this way rn

Diff asks, answering together.

Not saying too much because there's not much to be said besides that a friend who wrote a meta who won't post it (to all our detriment!) said it best last week: this story is cowardly. It's afraid to say or do anything because it wants to make everyone happy and realized it can't, so now it just wants to make no one upset, but everyone's upset.

I feel sad for Horikoshi. His recent interviews are quite depressing, and he seems burned out and done with his own manga in a way that makes Gege look enthusiastic about JJK.

Like, he doesn't confirm Touya dead or alive--which frankly I will take--but leaves it up to the reader to decide. Is the doctor's word final, or is Touya crying a symbol of healing since he previously couldn't? I know which one I choose to believe, but this way people can choose to fit the manga into their personal beliefs. He's trying to say nothing to avoid rocking the boat. And that's just sad, especially when we consider what likely contributed to that.

Which is to say, on a purely story level, the story has no power. There's being open to other perspectives and then there's not having a message. This is sadly the latter. It's a mess. Deku "heroes save" doesn't save, but he's still heroic, but that line isn't demolished or destroyed. AFO may be dead, but he won in the end because what he used to taunt Deku came true. Deku's character is nothing more than a vehicle--no struggle, no emotional climax, no principles. The ships are not even confirmed because the story can't even commit to the obvious Ochaco/Deku (which I dislike even!) for fear of angering other loud shippers. Society is the problem, but also the answer. The hero system is the problem, but also the answer. It's not a paradox because it doesn't explain the layers at play here. It's just noodles that have cooked far too long and turned into a congealed mess.

The only message I can take from it is "yay authoritarianism" which I'm going to hope Horikoshi is saying accidentally (and most likely is). It's as meaningless as GoT season 8, and TROS, and that's not good company to be in.

[hamliet]

I also wanted to add something here about the symbolism of the brothers in Alyx's workshop: namely, two dragons, one winged and one serpentine. This is almost certainly directly lifted from alchemy. Nicolas Flamel (the real guy, not the HP character) notes:

"Looke well upon these two Dragons for they are the true principles of the beginning of the Philosophy.... the wingless dragon is sulphur because it never flies away from the fire. The winged serpent is quicksilver... these two must be united." Their union, however, is "a most violent and bloody copulation."

Jung comments:

... two dragons eating each other [symbolizes something] paradoxical: it is itself a created thing, but it brings all creatures out of a potential state of existence in the world of ideas... into actual existence.

The dragons/brothers/gods create humans out of their disagreement/fight (here symbolic) and it's in that that there is beauty. The goal is not to become like the gods, a la Salem (who committed literally the oldest sin in the book). The goal is to be fully human, fully yourself, because the beauty of humanity is in change and growth. The gods themselves embody this via an eternal fight.

Mirror Mirror

Well, obviously Vacuo is gonna be an inversion and mirror of Atlas, right?

[class1akids]

Ok so I gave up on this manga long back before the war arc as the story inconsistencies were disappointing me but I kept up with the leaks just to see if it’d go interesting or if HK would fix the plotholes. After reading yesterday’s leaks I am super super pissed and disappointed. As a big bakugou fan, the boy got emotional development but it was made all about deku. He was given a total pointless death that didn’t achieve anything? Why do it? He didn’t save anyone except all might. No feelings shown towards anyone except deku n all might. My expectation was both him n deku trying to save shigaraki but the latter was killed in the most random manner. At first I thought maybe the leakers left something out but no, one punch and he is gone. No is mourning him, no regrets from Deku, he didn’t even speak with the villain. Ever since Deku unlocked Blackwhip, HK stopped showing his emotions, he lost his heart and it’s a pity all BKDK fans think that the manga achieved everything they asked for(PS: No it didn’t, it totally ruined your favourite characters and made them fodder feed, removed all the substance that made them lovable)

Iida wasn’t given much and sidelined (hello stain did you interact with this kid??), Shouto’s storyline went well but at least show him helping in the final fight rather than a single panel and uraraka’s cutest smile thing? Surely he could have written it so much better? Tokoyami, Kaminari, Mina, Kirishima and poor Momo, every kid was shown with lacklustre writing. Given a moment to shine and then faded to background.

And the way HK handled league of villains.. oh man, poor kurogiri, poor tenko, he managed to turn a complex characters into sacrifice.

This was a really sad ending and out of all the directions to go I have no clue why he chose to write this way. He clearly was trying to move the story in a good direction before so I had some hope but the execution of it butchered everything.

Yeah, I agree. I think Hori didn't do Deku or Bakugou justice, and generally what could have been a satisfying celebration of the great bonds of Class A, as well as the LoV, he barely allowed any meaningful interactions.

It's still bonkers to me that he made All Might fight AFO in an asspull mecha suit with the kids' quirks, while Class A got a single chapter of a combo and for many of the kids that's like their ONLY highlight.

As for the LoV , Tomura dying without even knowing if his friends are alive or being able to do anything for said friends right after he said he wanted to be the hero of the villains? That was just so weird.

I'm really not sure what happened in 424 - it felt like a narrative whiplash that Deku killed Tomura and Bakugou and Deku (presumably) killed Kurogiri all of a sudden. And not in a good twist way, but more like a "let's get this over with" way.

I think I tend to agree with hamliet who wrote a post about how Hori's greatest weakness is trying to please everyone and also the suspected editorial / WSJ meddling. I don't know what to think.

I mean you are correct to say that it's not the first time Hori dropped the ball - to me the decline starts way back at the Overhaul arc. But he still had good spots and there was a set up. All he had to do was put the roof on top of the bricks he built.

[foundouthatdabiistouyatodoroki]

Despite my many frustrations with how the series is headed, I am grateful that I became invested in it, it gave me anger but joy at the same time I never forgot the time when I lost my shit when 290 came out I felt so happy and excited I couldn’t keep still I will never forget that No matter how the series is ended I am grateful to meet many wonderful people in the fandom 

redphlox, hamliet, rainygirl2399, darkonekrisrewrite thank you for giving me the best experience I can ask for 

[haleigh-sloth]

Hello! So I am very late to the “meeting” haha, you can dismiss this since it’s a bit out of the blue. But I wanted to ask if you ever shared your thoughts for the ending of MHA? I kind of fell off of it after seeing spoilers, but then looking back into it, I didn’t really get to see the op of some meta blogs I followed since they’ve posted a lot since then. That and when trying to search up “ending” or meta, there was just a lot of vague posts that did not help. Even then, it seems like everyone had a united agreement that know one liked it (don’t blame them either. Toga’s death sucks along with Shigaraki, it’s vague about Spinner and Compress being or not being in jail, and Dabi unknown, but hey that’s better than nothing. Like to think he and Shoto are able to eat soba together even if Dabi is or is not under house arrest) 😅 Did your friends Redphox, Transhawks, and Hamliet ever share their thoughts? Or other meta blogs you know? Or did everyone kind of just drop it…

Sorry for the late response. I've mostly disconnected for my sanity but I can answer.

All my friends did share their thoughts yes. You can probably search their blogs and find them. But also a lot of us just....dropped it.

The manga went so south so fast in such a shocking and unexpected way that there wasn't any time to process it. Truly a horrible experience that I don't ever want to deal with again lol. I sound dramatic but really, 4 years of my life being so emotionally attached to these characters and the dynamics and it all meaning nothing in the end. It really did hurt!

The re-readability is completely gone because of the ending. It's not even a mediocre "passable" ending, it's just....the kind of ending I pretend doesn't exist. I really do, except when I'm forced to remember it.

I think a lot of us shared our thoughts as we could and then just dropped it for our emotional health because we all were going through it pretty bad. And even still it's hard to even look at content for the series.

I think what hurts the most is the recent visuals used for the OP for the 7th season. Like...putting the kids with their villains, showing them happy, or the "what could have been", or just showing them TOGETHER, and for what? For nothing, and that sucks bad.

I'm trying to get to where I am with every other series I've been attached to and hated the ending, where I literally just forget the ending exists and it doesn't bother me. I'll get there one day, which is why I'm not getting rid of my merch or my volumes. I love the characters and 420 chapters of the story. That's enough for me, I just need time. Sorry idk if this answered your question. If I had it in me I'd search for posts and link them here but I definitely don't have it in me to do that. Thanks for the ask though :)

[evax3]

Heya! I wanted to ask you… do you have any hope that the books will come out and we’ll finally know the real ending? And what do you think Jon and Dany’s endings will be? I keep on being optimistic we will get the real ending. And all I need for it to be perfect is Dany and Arya and Jon (my three favorites) surviving and being able to find peace and happiness after the hells they all suffered. As much as I want Dany and Jon to be King and Queen, I’ll settle for them living. But what do you think?

Hello my friend, thank you for the ask!! :)

regarding the books, I'm sure we’ll get to know the ending some day, one way or another. Whether they'll ever be published, I have little hope, but never say never. At least I assume that after his death there will be a "GRRM – Unpublished Works" collection or something similar in which we can read chapters from Winds and Dream of Spring as well as many other short stories about our faves. 

As for Dany and Jon’s ending, I highly recommend @hamliet 's meta’s. I love reading all of them but especially the analysis of Dany as a romantic heroine. It tells us so much about what we should expect for her endgame and why (it all makes so much sense!!). 

I assume Dany will set King’s Landing on fire. Not intentionally, but because her father hid the Wildfire under the city and Daenerys will accidentally blow it up with her dragons fighting against f!Aegon. I don't see her killing innocent people as some collateral damage, but I see her fighting her enemies with fire and blood (which imo makes all the difference).

The incident in KL will throw her into a crisis and I think only with Jon's help she’ll get out of it and pick herself up to fight with him against the real enemy aka the Others (I’m sure their decision to form an alliance is one of the last scenes of TWOW and in ADOS they’re already a couple romantically involved with each other). 

So I guess Winds will be about Dany conquering Westeros while Jon is a little lost, has to deal with the aftermath of his mutiny and then later his parental reveal, while A Dream of Spring will be more about their relationship and the Battle for the Dawn. I think Dany will be Azor Ahai and save Westeros with Jon by her side, but no one will thank them for that because of what happened before in KL (and also the general prejudice against their family). And that this is one of the essential elements that make the ending so bittersweet (as George has indicated). 

She and Jon will be the true heroes, the bastard and the exile, but no one is going to see it or give them credit for that.

GRRM describes himself as a romantic writer and romantic literature is shaped by the fact that it focuses more on the inner conflict than the external conflict. So I assume that all 3 (Arya, Dany and Jon - who are also my favorites) are mainly dealing with their identity crises in the following books. What is their purpose in this world? How do people's expectations fit with their own desires and ambitions? By the end of the story, these questions should be answered.

I think Arya is pretty safe, when it comes to staying alive. I'm not quite so sure about Jonerys/Snowstorm. As much as I want it, because of course I wish for a HEA for my favorite ship, I actually don't see the two of them ruling together. I think they'll fall in love and Dany will get pregnant (because them having a family with each other has been hinted at way too much and unlike D&D, George isn't just doing that only as "clickbait"). But my fear is that only one of them will be able to see their child grow up… 

And I'm not even sure what I actually want for their endgame if anything were possible? Probably to pack up their baby, Ghost and the dragons and then emigrate, lol. Maybe to Lys or somewhere warm? But they both have too much of a hero complex to ever pull that off ❤️

[horizon-verizon]

Daemon made and brought Nettles gifts such as “an ivory-handled hairbrush, a silvered looking glass, a cloak of rich brown velvet bordered in satin, a pair of riding boots of leather soft as butter.”

This behavior from Daemon towards Nettles resembles the way he behaved towards Rhaenyra when he supposedly tried to seduce her/taught her the arts of seduction (depending on which tale you believe) early on in Fire & Blood, when King Viserys was still alive.

“Daemon spent long hours in her company, enthralling her with tales of his journeys and battles. He gave her pearls and silks and books and a jade tiara said once to have belonged to the Empress of Leng, read poems to her, dined with her. […] Uncle and niece began to fly “together almost daily, racing Syrax against Caraxes to Dragonstone and back.”

If Nettles was his bastard daughter, or if he cared about her as such and nothing else, he could have sent word to Rhaenyra about it. He could have gone to her himself, since his life was not in danger. Rhaenyra had been clear that Dameon wasn’t supposed to be harmed. If his relationship with Nettles was just platonic or even just sexual, he could have sent her away, realizing that his adventures (or what was perceived as an affair) with the dragonseed had gone too far, and returned to his Queen’s side, to rule beside her and fight her traitors. Daemon could have even killed Nettles himself if their relationship was simply transactional in the sense he wanted someone to sleep with while on his mission, and that would reinforce that even if he strayed away in their marriage, Rhaenyra was still his queen and the one he was loyal to. None of that would be out of character for him.

Instead, he allowed Nettles to escape alive and unharmed, in a scene that is written to convey how hard it was for them to be parting from each other and that they weren’t doing that willingly:

“How the prince and his bastard girl spent their last night beneath Lord Mooton’s roof is not recorded, but as dawn broke they appeared together in the yard*, and Prince Daemon helped Nettles saddle Sheepstealer one last time. […] Maester Norren records, “her cheeks were stained with tears.” No word of farewell was spoken between man and maid, but as Sheepstealer beat his leathery brown wings and climbed into the dawn sky, Caraxes raised his head and gave a scream that shattered every window in Jonquil’s Tower.” 

Daemon’s actions after Nettles is gone is to fly towards Harrenhal to face Aemond and Vhagar by himself. It’s a suicide mission: he has no desire of surviving and coming back to Rhaenyra.

This ask is in response to this recent reblog.

Thanks for being the next person who did not read the posts I already made against each and every argument you brought up. One of them is a master post darklinaforever compiled, and I reblogged it HERE. If you like, you can click the ones I already gave in that reblog (the first one) I wrote to that person. That's not my issue or responsibility.

But I have others regarding how Gyldayn, Eustace, and some people who look at Daemon and Nettles Maidenpool interactions, Daemon's feelings towards Rhaenyra, and his feelings towards Laena all both have to do with this argument for why I don't think Daemon x Nettles are and ever will be a thing:

POST#1

POST#2

POST#3 (Gyldayn on Nettles)

POST #4 (Lord Mooton, the execution letter, gifts, and bathing)

POST #5 (Laena & Daemon)

POST #6 (or just click HERE for me tracking Daemon's premeeting with Aemond, the actual meeting before they battle, and the aftermath/legacy)

BONUS: hamliet goes over why Mysaria Could have wanted Nettles dead HERE.

[megashadowdragon]

bnha chapter 393 adds to my theory of decay being izukus original quirk

izuku x ochako is obviously being pushed  people comapred shigaraki and ochako quirks due to them requiring all 5 fingers touching and now ochakos evolving to extending to things she hasnt touched just like with shigarakis quirk evolution

if  decay  was izukus it would mean that that both ochako ( a quirk that would help with construction) izuku ( help with demolition/destruction) and both can work as a rescue  with izuku after evolving it would get rid of inanimate objects that would bury someone ( if he trained it to control what he destroys

“

there are parallels between   Tomura Shigaraki and Izuku Midoriya (who are of the same generation) Just as Midoriya is chosen to be All Might’s successor, Shigaraki is being groomed as the successor for All Might’s archnemesis all for one(AFO)

for more on izuku and shigaraki being foils check this post out :

hamliet . tumblr . com/post/182207900119/hero-vs-villain-foils-shigaraki-tomura-and-izuku

at the start of the story both of them are pretty terrible at what they try to do and have to learn from their mentors. Izuku is trying to become the worlds greatest hero, Shigaraki is trying to become the world’s greatest villain at the same time. (shigaraki is the evil  counterpart to izuku midoriya)

so it would be an interesting parallel if shigaraki was like izuku originally quirkless   and their respective mentors all for one and all might gave them their quirks but all for one gave him a quirk decay unwillingly and without his knowledge  so that he would accidentally kill his family

this person gives a lot of evidence for shigaraki being given the decay quirk by afo though makeste thinks afo stole shigarakis quirk and replaced it with a new one instead of being quirkless :

makeste . tumblr . com/post/183799846838/bnha-222

.

AFO engineered this entire situation in order to traumatize Nana’s grandson and manipulate him into becoming the deranged little villain boy we all know and love today.

evidence:

it’s safe to say that Tomura’s quirk isn’t anything like Nana’s, or else All Might and Gran Torino probably would have put the pieces together a lot sooner. so that means that Tomura either got his quirk from his mother’s side of the family, or else this isn’t his original quirk

AFO just happens to find Baby Tenko in the aftermath of him having accidentally murdered his entire family. and he knows exactly what happened. and the circumstances just so happen to line up perfectly for him to gain Tenko’s trust and manipulate him to hate All Might and heroes in general. what I’m saying is, clearly none of this is actually a coincidence. which means AFO either killed Tenko’s family himself and then fudged Tenko’s memories to make him think he did it, or else he engineered things to make it so that Tenko would kill them

Tomura admits to having no clear memories prior to meeting AFO, so he was either traumatized to the point where he suppressed all those memories for his own self-preservation, or his memories were purposely manipulated by AFO. I don’t doubt AFO is capable of this, and right now it seems the more likely option to me. AFO seems fairly confident that Tomura won’t regain those memories but will still retain the emotions

lastly, AFO and Ujiko were clearly not above “tinkering” with him, since Ujiko asked AFO whether or not he should do so after Tenko had his mini-breakdown upon seeing the hands. idk about you guys, but I got a feeling they had already done something and he was talking more about fine-tuning whatever it was, but AFO decided against it

afo stole decay quirk from izuku as an infant maybe the doctor found a way to detect what a kids quirk will be during infancy and allow afo to steal it and gave it to shigaraki  who was actually born quirkless. or izukus quirk first appeared  when  izuku was a baby

I mean the first quirk user was found in a glowing baby so its possible

and it would make an interesting connection between shigaraki and izuku

and add to the parallels between them

while izukus quirk was stolen shigaraki was given that quirk and neither of their fathers wanted them to be heroes

“

All For One having been the one to give a Quirkless Tomura Shigaraki the Decay Quirk would be a good story decision and another great parallel to Izuku Midoriya and All Might.

“the itching being his body rejecting the quirk because it’s not his own or the random stranger who found Tenko on the street and just after that the quirk got activated)“

I may be reaching this theory may be crack  but hey bnha is ending soon so I just want to make at least one more theory post of my own 

[mercyandmagic]

Heya Mercy! I'm the person who made the teen!wangxian fic rec list yesterday and it wasn't until you reblogged it that I remembered YOU WROTE ONE OF MY FAVORITE FICS EVER (i.e. The Oriole Behind You) so anyways if you don't mind, I would love for you to talk a little bit about that fic. I know it's been a while since that fic was published, but how did you come up with the idea? How did you come up with the ships? What was the process like when you wrote it? How did you come up with the twists and turns?

Anyways, thanks for being awesome. Keep slaying!

Oh! Thank you so much!!!

I didn’t come up with the forced marriages part. My sister @hamliet came up with the idea of Wen Ruohan setting up all these pairings. We both adore Wangxian, Xiyao, Xuanli, Nie Mingjue/Wen Qing, and Sangyu. I’d recently written a fic with Jiang Cheng and Mianmian (Sentiment), and Xue Yang/Chang Ping (Everything But a Father), and Hamliet pointed out that Jiang Cheng and Mianmian is perfect because he always blamed the fall of Lotus Pier on Jin Zixuan and Lan Wangji defending her. If his siblings married the respective defenders, it only fits for Jiang Cheng to marry Mianmian, and I love that idea.

As for Qin Su/Wen Ning, and Su She/Jin Zixun, I’ve written them in Brothers and Sisters and I adore the respective two cinnamon rolls and enemies-to-lovers aspect to our two bitter boys (Yes, I stan Jin Zixun because if I don’t, who will?). 

Hamliet asked me to write it instead, and I was all to happy to oblige. I initially set out to have a happy/cracky tone.

And then... Writing the twists and turns was really one of those things where characters take the pen and run with it. I opened with Meng Yao, and by the end of the first chapter, it was entirely different than the idea I’d had when Hamliet first texted me. A-Yao started revealing all this angst, and then Xue Yang arrived and still revealed more angst. Lan Wangji gave me even more angst with his pain in the second chapter. 

I wrote it faster than most stories, and the characters just kept choosing where to go. Some plot points remained unchanged: Wangxian had to have their questionable ‘first time,’ Xuanli needed to have Jin Ling. When I began to realize how many characters were having kids and that it wasn’t realistic... that’s when I side-eyed Meng Yao and realized it would make perfect sense for him to have slipped a potion in Qin Su and Jiang Yanli’s food. 

Jiang Yanli as the one orchestrating the rebellion was a surprise, but I really liked the idea of the gentle but brave Yanli as the driving force. She may be nice and sweet, but she’s incredibly brave in the novel, and I think she’s the type to risk everything for her son, just like she did for Wei Wuxian at Nightless City. 

I’ve always felt a little less comfortable with Songxiao, but diving into the stoic Song Lan’s feelings was really fun to try out and led to the surprising and humorous (to me) reveal at the end that he and Xiao Xingchen had never actually defined their romantic feelings before.

I think I was able to write it so quickly in part because this story was a great retreat during the tumultuous Spring of 2020. A comforting distraction from the outer hellscape. And... everything just kept falling into place based on how the characters worked out. 

Thank you for the ask – it’s been really fun to remember. :) 

[lurkerwithcomputer]

Hug Me Like You Mean It

A/N: Ever since I read @hamliet 's TG highschool AU I've thought about something similar but with ghouls still being a thing.

"Would you go out with me?"

She puts her tall glass of blood down on the counter, with a clunk. The question makes her feel like the world is on pause for a moment, although there's not much action going on in the dorm's common room to even pause in the first place. It's dead empty, actually, and probably a good time for asking someone out.

She can't help but wonder what kind of human would ask out a ghoul.

She doesn't know that many humans. At least, not on friendly terms, except for Yoriko, and a few people from her dorm - her roommate Akira mostly. She's not counting the ones who used to be human - they still confuse her, tying her feelings into tangled knots.

But Yoriko's middle school friend, Takeomi, is standing across from her, cheeks a bit pink. She's seen enough of him in gym class to know the logical reason he'd ask out a ghoul, instead of the human girls he seems pretty popular with. As humans go, he's a rare kind of strong. The ghoul kind of strong. I bet he'd like someone he can give a real hug to without cracking her ribs. On the other hand, he could've asked out any ghoul. She knows her personality is all spikes and sandpaper on the outside, so...

"Why me?"

He winces and his shoulders slump.

Shit. I gave him the wrong idea.

"Hey. Look at me. This isn't a no, really I think you're a good, solid kind of guy. I'm just curious, 'cause you could've asked anyone, and I know I'm pretty abrasive."

He's quiet for a moment. She can almost hear him thinking through her words.

"Two reasons, I guess. One is that Yoriko says a lot of good things about you. The other is a piece of dating advice from my dad: 'if you find a good woman who doesn't know it, pick her and show her' is what he always said."

She feels her face go hot, she has to be bright red.

"Well I think it's working, because I've been much less grumpy with you than I usually am. One more thing," and she watches Takeomi perk up, "I bet I know why you asked out a ghoul."

He blushes heavily but doesn't say anything. She opens her arms wide.

"Come here and hug me like you mean it."

[momtaku]

It seems like you have the viewpoint that Historia’s pregnancy was a red herring and shipping bait that went nowhere. I personally don’t interpret it to have been intentionally that way at all, given there was nothing romantic or sexual about their relationship or 130, she seems scared of him. the anime clearly showed this as well. how would Eren having been the father had made it “better”? Those viewpoints focused on Eren and not Hisu. Not to mention E wasnt interested in starting a fam.

Also no offense but I also don’t think there was much of a mystery with Historia’s pregnancy in the narrative outside of why she chose to do it at that timing and who warned her. 130 completed the mystery. I can understand it being disappointing and I wish she never had to go through this issue. But things being a disappointment doesn’t mean there was this “baiting” intent. Idk, i just have issues w/ accusing authors of having an intent that wasnt there then getting mad. It feels entitled

Sorry, last thing i wanted to say b/c I just wanted to be clear with what I’m trying to express b/c it’s hard with limited numbers: I don’t think there was a mystery about Historia’s pregnancy outside of what the story told us. There really was no other reason for it besides to avoid being titanized. it’s fine to dislike this but ppl not being satisfied w/ it & then theorizing more than already there isn’t the authors fault nor is it a red herring. Eren being father wouldn’t have improved this.

Anon, I'm not sure what you think my viewpoints are but I'm pretty sure you are wrong on at least one of them. I'll share something I saw on @hamliets blog earlier today which I agreed with. Hamliet wrote, "Historia’s arc was a nightmare that went from being top tier to something so horrid it seems like Isayama realized it was awful and ignored it as much as possible out of a desire not to make it worse."

The only thing that would've made Historia's arc worse was if Eren had been the father because. I agree with what you say about that. Eren being the father would have destroyed two character arcs and not just one.

Agree to disagree on the rest I guess. Thanks for the ask!

[hamliet]

the notion that bnha is pro authoritarianism or social hierarchies is nonsensical not to mention acting like being pro cop is bad

Err... BNHA is pretty pro-authoritarian. I actually find it pretty disturbing. And that's even if the story turns out with the League alive at the end.

As for being pro-cop--cops are human individuals, yes. But people have in recent years in multiple countries (including Japan, by the way) protested against cops being used as tools to maintain social hierarchies wherein people who are not part of that hierarchy suffer for daring to want to be treated as human beings. When I say I'm anti-cop, I'm not saying I hate anyone on the basis of being a cop. But I am saying that the ways in which the police force are used in many countries does societal harm. Critical thinking, yo.

Honestly I feel like this whole story (BNHA) and fans reactions throughout (especially when compared to other stories) demonstrate how people are not using critical thinking. And that can have real world consequences, though it doesn't have to.

I just find it weird that people are okay with a story where the ruling class is always right and always wins. Like... how have they not? I mean, even stories that end up suggesting the ruling class isn't entirely wrong or show flaws in rebellions generally don't go hard on the authoritarianism. But Horikoshi... is doing this.

The whole thing is so weird to me personally, too, because Horikoshi's wishy-washy framing and switches in coding generally seem to be the result of him caring, deeply, what his audience thinks and feels. Too much, really, but it also seems like he genuinely doesn't want to hurt people. Except this ending--even if Tenko does reappear as New Character and saves the League--is the exact opposite. (If Tenko doesn't reappear, then everything I'm about to say is multiplied by a thousand.)

It's catering to mean-spiritedness, and while I do understand fiction isn't reality, the side he's catering to now is making the argument that fictional crimes are real crimes and thus must meet real penalties.

I can play this game too.

If people are gonna make those arguments, I'm going to say they're the problem and the reason we have wars, genocides, assaults, and more.

If you ever want a cycle of violence/abuse to stop, someone has to accept that they've taken the last punch. Not keep going until the other side is WIPED OUT.

If you equate justice with equalizing losses, then you are enacting Dazai from BSD's statement on justice: justice is a weapon. You can never heal by it.

If you want to heal, you have to stop fighting and bandage wounds. And maybe you are too injured to do the bandaging. That's okay. But someone else can, and if you try to stop them on the premise of "but no one bandaged my wounds" you're a bitter person who makes the world a worser place.

If you say a tragedy is the story, sure. But you have to set up tragedies from the start. See, Attack on Titan, which's ending I love. It began with someone crying and an ominous message to the future. You don't set up your first chapter with "this is the story of how I become the greatest hero!" spend 200+ chapters criticizing hero society and have the hero fail at the goal he'd been repeating for 200 chapters in the end and join hero society and still think you wrote a story that delivered in what you promised. You failed.

Either you wrote a tragedy and are trying to pass it off as a happy story (see how well that works usually) or your understanding of a happy story is pretty much just fascist propaganda. And yes, BNHA does have fascist themes at this point. Way more than AoT ever did. But they have smiles and cute frog girls so it's not nearly as dangerous, right? (sarcastic).

The thing is, this is where the lack of critical thinking comes in. While I've seen people talk a bit about how BNHA seems like copaganda, it's taking things much, much further than other stories usually do and into territory where I'm frankly disturbed.

Yes, BNHA started out as a clever critique of hero society and of the very idea it's now seeming to uphold: that the human instinct (which is universal in real life to) to idolize people leads to a lack of humanity for those who do not have those traits we idolize, whether their fault or not, and for people to become villains in response. But not only has it failed to deliver on this premise by upholding society (hey, Naruto and to a degree Tokyo Ghoul also failed to completely change society), it's gone so far as to endorse what it previously criticized.

It's more akin to Game of Thrones Season 8 upholding racism, sexism, and classism, than it is to Naruto or Tokyo Ghoul. GoT ended with a joke about prioritizing brothels being open, as if the misogyny was actually a good thing and not what caused a lot of the problems. There's no critical lens here. It's just like "hey, there was no point in struggling. Monarchies that abuse women, rah rah, let's go!"

BNHA seems to be going a similar route. Deku's murder of Shigaraki, Ochaco's crying over Toga, the way Shouto reaches out to Touya--it's sad, but not framed as something the audience should see as a wrong done on behalf of heroes. In fact, the heroes are not criticized at all. Frickin' Edgeshot, whom no one cares about, is fine. All of them are fine. Their statuses are generally fine, too, except maybe Enji's and even then he's not like going to face the fate of the League and die alone. His family still supports him. Hawks is completely fine and framed positively. His regret over Twice is pure lipservice. Deku really did just need to kill Shigaraki, and all his "I want to save" spiel, much like Ochaco's, is for naught. He just needed to learn to grow up and get in line.

Even if Tenko comes back, and even if Deku like... somehow knew this would happen via vestiges or whatnot (let's be real, he will if this is the case), and the message is just that society isn't ready to move forward, but at least they can live, then... I don't know, y'all. That's still depressing. I don't see how Deku is a hero for that, much less the greatest number one hero. He decided to be a hero at the cost of his own integrity, and if this was a gritty story about the realistic struggle of living in a capitalistic society where ethics are always compromised that would make sense, but... it's not. Even until the final battle, the characters were endorsing idealism.

At the very least, Horikoshi didn't deliver on his promise in the first chapter. At the very worst, he's endorsing fascist ideals.

Like, I'm sorry, but "kill this person for the good of society," the violent upholding of oppressive societal hierarchies, the importance of being a cop hero and the way the military hero brutalities are worshipped, the way heroes are lauded and everyone who doesn't get in line with this is punished, went from being criticized to being endorsed. Those are all central elements of fascism.

The little guy deserves to lose, but, but Deku is the little guy, so it can't be! Except it can be. Because it's actually pretty common irl even to trot out examples of people like Candace Owens to be like "hey, you can't possibly say Republicans are racist!"

And don't you dare say "but Japanese culture makes it unreasonable to expect a non retributive justice!" The Japanese people are not a monolith. Not to mention... Naruto, Bungou Stray Dogs, Monster, Hunter x Hunter, Yu Yu Hakusho, Mawaru Penguindrum, Oshi no Ko, Dragon Ball, Attack on Titan, and Tokyo Ghoul all say hi.

I hated the TG ending, and still hate it, but I'm not going to say that it upheld the CCG as right all along because it didn't. BNHA thus far is doing that with hero society. And even if the answer is for the League be revived and to leave society or whatever, then how can we be happy Deku is a part of this society? How can we root for him, or his classmates? Is he going to work from the inside to change it? Why wasn't that emphasized beforehand as a theme or struggle?

tl;dr Horikoshi has cooked his story no matter what he does now, and I don't think it's salvageable. Either way it has themes that are disturbing especially considering real world events across the globe, and that people should be more aware of instead of focusing solely on stories that have fascism and monsters in them but don't uphold it.

[aspoonofsugar]

do you think the song out for love says something about Camilla and veggie and to veggies character arc

Hi!

Yes, it does. I want to talk about Vaggie in other metas too, so in this analysis I will focus on her relationship with Carmilla, since this is what you are mainly asking about.

Before I start, though, I am gonna link to you this meta by @hamliet, where she talks about the main message of the song:

You're gonna fight without gloves And when that push comes to shove Yeah, you just might rise above Long as you're out for love

If you love, you might rise above. So Vaggie, a fallen angel, regrows her wings by choosing love and protection over hate and revenge. The meaning is crystal clear. Love makes you worthy of Heaven. Just like in the finale Pentious ascends thanks to his selfless sacrifice.

This is the meaning of the song when it comes to theme and to the series as a whole.

At the same time it is not by chance this theme comes out so strongly in relation to Carmilla and Vaggie, as they are both tied to "love".

FAMILIAL LOVE AND ROMANTIC LOVE

Carmilla Carmine: So I, I'll be your keeper Do whatever it takes, I'll make the mistakes I'll keep you safe and keep this secret

Vaggie: So I, I'll be your armor Do whatever it takes, I'll make the mistakes I'll spend my life being your partner

Carmilla and Vaggie are set up as foils in episode 3, when they share the song Whatever It Takes. This ballad is a love song, but Carmilla and Vaggie express two different kinds of love:

Carmilla is singing to her daughters (familial)

Vaggie is singing to Charlie (romantic)

This is a pattern throughout the show:

There are two versions of More Than Anything - the first one is about a familial bond, whereas the second explores a romantic relationship

Sir Pentious gets redeemed after expressing his feelings for Cherri (romantic) and sacrificing himself for the Hotel Crew (familial)

So, Hazbin Hotel goes out of its way to celebrate all kinds of positive bonds: platonic, romantic, familial. All of these relationships are enriching and help people grow. Vaggie and Carmilla are two characters linked to this very concept, as they are ready to fight and suffer for their loved ones:

Both: Whatever we go through I know I~ (Carmilla: I'll be your keeper) (Vaggie: I'll be your armor) Whatever it takes (Carmilla: I'll make the mistakes) (Vaggie: I'll make the mistakes) Whatever it takes

They are both warriors, but fight for love. They are out for love. However, Whatever It Takes also highlights a major difference between them.

TRUST AND SELF-EXPRESSION

Scrambled Eggs is an episode about trust. This is true especially for Carmilla and Vaggie, who have opposite secrets:

Carmilla killed an angel

Vaggie is an angel

Throughout the song the conflict between Heaven and Hell is mentioned by Carmilla and is present in subtext in Vaggie's stanza, as she looks at her old home.

Both are struggling under the pressure of these truths and are confronted by a loved one:

Zestial: Carmilla, what troubles thou? Losing thy composure is unlike thee. Carmilla Carmine: It's nothing, Zestial, really.

Charlie: Vaggie, don't say that! You do so much! It's- Vaggie: I'm sorry. I'd… I'd like to be alone for a minute.

Carmilla chooses to open up to Zestial and tells her daughters how much she loves them. Vaggie instead closes herself off and refuses Charlie's attempt to talk. She is singing to Charlie, but Charlie herself isn't present to hear her out. Even when it comes to their respective secrets...

Carmilla says hers in the song:

Carmilla Carmine: I always thought that I would keep blood off my face But when that thing attacked, I had to act To cross that line and keep them safe But if anyone knew, then all of Hell would rise to war And who's to say who'd survive the fray? I might lose the ones that I was killing for

Vaggie only alludes to hers in the lyrics:

Vaggie: When I saw your face You made me feel like a stranger in a brand new place And it felt so good to be understood But there's so much I wished that I could say

Vaggie meets Charlie and feels like a stranger in a brand new place because at the time she is in fact a stranger in a brand new place:

So, Carmilla is able to express herself, while Vaggie can't. This isn't surprising, as Vaggie is basically a child-soldier:

Adam: Do you really think I wouldn't recognize one of my top girls just cuz you're out of uniform? You were on the front lines, I wouldn't forget a bad bitch like you. It's why I named you after the best thing ever. Vaggie.

She is brought up in Adam's army and is taught that love is conditional. She is one of Adam's best fighters, but the moment she makes a "mistake", she is discarded:

Lute: Sinful filth like you has no place in heaven.

This is why she feels Charlie will love her only if she is useful and never messes up:

Vaggie: I'm supposed to make your dreams a reality. I'm supposed to protect you. I'm supposed to never fail you. (...) If I can't help you, what's the point of me?

This fear of abandonement and rejection is also at the root of Vaggie's inability to tell Charlie about her past:

Adam: I guess I'll just tell little miss butterflies and rainbows that she's been fucking someone who's killed-- thousands of her people. I'm sure your relationship will be fine.

Still, despite her communication issues, Vaggie's heart is in the right place:

Rosie: If there's anything I've learned, it's that words are cheap, but actions, they speak the truth. So, what have her actions said?

Vaggie is a person of few words. This may be why she has less songs than other characters. Still, she lets her actions speak, so she is given a ballet lesson by a very talented ballerina:

DANCING THROUGH LIFE

Carmilla has a ballet motif, as her outfit resembles that of a ballerina and her two daughters are called after protagonists of famous ballets. So, it is only natural that she teaches Vaggie a new way to fight through dancing.

Vaggie was taught to fight with hate and anger. So, her fighting style is aggressive and focused on attack:

Carmilla: You leave yourself open with every swing. You fight like someone unafraid of harm, and this is what you'll take advantage of. Angels wield no shields, little armor and fight with reckless abandon.

Carmilla tells her she should instead dedicate herself to love, protection and defense:

Fuel yourself with the fear of losin' That somebody who's your reason to live Harnеss your heart and you can't help choosin' To fight with all you can give

Vaggie shouldn't just fight. She should dance:

She shouldn't hate:

I see you're driven by your detestation Your every step is stoked with animus You need a different type of motivation Or there's no way that you can handle this

She should love:

Out for love~ Love~ Think of who you care about Protect them and be out For love~ Love~

Vaggie listens to these teachings and applies them in the finale, in two ways.

She sings her love for Charlie in More Than Anything Reprise:

Vaggie: You've already done so much So many lives you've changed So many souls you've touched And in the end, if it's only me you've saved Charlie and Vaggie: There's something that I've been dying to say More than anything, more than anything Need you to know I love you more than anything More than anything

As stated above, Vaggie doesn't sing much in season 1, but in the final episode she gets a short moment to express how she feels to Charlie. This is in contrast to Whatever It Takes, where she sends her girlfriend away before she starts singing. More Than Anything Reprise shows Vaggie's progress when it comes to self-expression.

She follows Carmilla's advices while fighting

On a practical level she covers herself up in a battle suit inspired by Carmilla's outfit, she wears a harness on her heart and ties her hair:

Vaggie: I'm not used to fighting with long hair.

On a thematic level she reveals her wings and defeats Lute, when the exorcist threathens Charlie:

Lute: So, I'll spare you the pain of seeing your demon bitch die.

And Vaggie eventually chooses not to kill the other angel:

Lute: Do it, then. Correct your mistake. Vaggie: Seriously, you're pathetic, you know that? Ready to die rather than accepting mercy? No, live. Live knowing that you only do because I let you, the failure.

Vaggie is asked to choose between her hate for Lute and her love for Charlie and she chooses the latter. This is why the scene ends with Vaggie leaving Lute and flying to help Charlie. She is given the chance to get revenge, but doesn't take it. She is given the chance to hate, but she loves:

I know you're thirstin' for vengeance, Vaggie You're out for blood But you'll only stand a chance if you're out for love

This is important in two ways:

1- The macrochosm - Vaggie refuses Lute's ideals and defies her expectations. For Lute it is normal that Vaggie is going to kill her. After all, Vaggie is discarded because she shows pity to a sinner, which makes her weak. Still, Vaggie bests Lute in a fight, so she is now strong. It is only obvious then that Vaggie has snapped out of her foolery and is ready to kill. She can correct her mistake. She did not kill the cannibal child, but she can kill Lute. This is how Lute understands the world. And yet, Vaggie doesn't finish her off. By doing so, she moves away from the mentality Lute embodies. She is strong precisely because she can show mercy. Adam is wrong. Lute is wrong. Vaggie isn't out for blood. She is out for love.

2- The microchosm - Vaggie sparing Lute isn't just the morally correct choice, but it is Vaggie's first step into healing:

Husk: (To Vaggie) This one. Judges everyone and everything because she hates herself.

Vaggie hates everyone because she deep down hates herself. She despises Heaven and Angels because she can't forgive her involvement in the exterminations. So, Vaggie hurting Lute would be Vaggie hurting her past self. As a matter of fact Lute is Vaggie's dark mirror. She is who Vaggie might become if she gives in to hate.

A person who hurts others:

And herself:

Vaggie instead has to value her life, so that she can protect others. She must save others and heal herself. Only in this way she can be by Charlie's side. She needs to let go of self-hate to embrace a healthy love. Vaggie's arc is her learning self-love through her bond with the Princess of Hell.

Obviously this journey is just at the beginning and our Angel of Love has a long way to go. How will her story contiue? We can make some hypothesis, which once again stem from Vaggie and Carmilla's foiling. This is just a theory, so take it with a grain of salt, but Vaggie may have a secondary personal antagonist in Hell:

Why is that so? It's because Scrambled Eggs sets Vaggie and Velvette up as foils.

RESPECT(LESS)

Velvette and Vaggie are opposites in their interactions with Carmilla. Both girls are younger than the Dancer Overlord and could learn a lot from her. However, Velvette refuses any kind of mentorship and shows no respect:

Velvette: Mad that I acted respectless? Well, it's cause no one could respect this! You're long past trending! Sorry, bae, but I ain't swiping right! You've lost your relevance-

Vaggie instead comes to respect Carmilla and learns from her:

At the same time, both Velvette and Vaggie confront Carmilla about her secret:

Velvette: 'Oops!' Did I strike a nerve? 'Cause when I brought out the angel's head, couldn't help but observe, that your wrinkled face was turning red! And why are you avoiding war? That's what the guns you sell are for! Thanks to my being respectless, one thing I'm starting to suspect is You know why this angel's headless! Do you have a disclosure?

Vaggie: I know what you did on extermination day. We can talk about it inside, or I can yell about it out here.

They call Carmilla out on killing an angel and keeping this knowledge to herself. Not only that, but both argue that it is necessary to fight back to stop the exterminations:

Velvette: We found it during Extermination day. If these Holy Rollers can be killed, the game has changed. We can take the fight to them. The boys and I have come up with a full assault plan!

Vaggie: Miss Carmine, I'm here on appointment from the princess to enlist your aid in the defense of hell from the angelic extermination. We know an angel fell at your hands and we need to know how.

Still, Velvette fails to get through to Carmilla because she uses war rhetoric:

Velvette: Oh, I get it. So Grandpa is too pussy to fight, so I guess there's no point, right? Oh, what's the matter, Fossil? Too senile to make a real power grab...

She speaks of violence, strength and power.

Vaggie instead convinces Carmilla to help because she mentions the necessity to fight for loved ones:

Vaggie: We didn't pick this fight, but it's here now. And they aren't going to stop with us. You didn't see the look on their leader's face. With us out of the way, it's only a matter of time before they come for the rest of you. They won't stop until all of hell is wiped out, so you can help us make a stand here together, or you can stand alone tomorrow.

She speaks of protection, love and comraderie.

In short, Vaggie succeeds where Velvette fails. Of course, this is true for Charlie's group in general when it comes to the Vees:

Vox: My dear people! We at VoxTek Enterprises have always been at the forefront of innovation. And now, with this new oncoming threat, we are shifting our focus, to your protection. We are pleased to announce VoxTek Angelic Security is coming soon! Trust us, with YOUR safety.

Katie Killjoy: Breaking news - Extermination day is cancelled! Charlie Morningstar managed to fend off the angelic attack with more than just nice words.

The Vees make big declarations of how they are gonna protect the people of Hell, but in the end it is Charlie and her friends who fight for the sinners.

When it comes to Vaggie and Velvette specifically, it is going to be interesting if their foiling is expanded. If so, then I guess Velvette is gonna help Vaggie mature a little bit more, so that when our ex exorcist faces Lute (her nemesis) again, she is gonna be ready for it.

[argentvive]

I hope you're answering questions and this one doesn't bother you. I'm curious about Tin/Jupiter and the roles it may have in an alchemical story.

I'm away from my reference books for a while, but off the top of my head the one character who is associated with Jupiter/tin is Ron Weasley in Harry Potter. Ron refers to Jupiter a few times in the series--he exclaims "By Jupiter" for example, if I recall correctly.

I know @hamliet has a copy of Lyndy Abraham's dictionary, so you might want to ask her to look up Jupiter/tin.

One of the plates in Splendor Solis is devoted to Jupiter, so that's a potential source of story ideas for an author who wants to work the "lesser" metals in. I'm unable to upload the image, but here's a description of it by Jorg Vonagel, an art historian at the State Museums of Berlin.

Drawn by two peacocks, their tail feathers down, Jupiter’s planetary chariot navigates its way across the heavens. Holding two arrows as attributes in his right hand, the planetary god sits enthroned in his chariot while an aid, kneeling before him, offers him a bowl. The more noble circles of society fall under Jupiter’s rule, including the nobility and the clergy. The painter of the Splendor Solis expands this group to include alchemists, whom he depicts in the right midground in a state of industrious activity. Here, one of the adepts can be seen leaning over towards a helmet-shaped oven-top known as an alembic, while the other one inspects the flask he is holding in his left hand. The left-hand side of the picture is occupied by a pigeon-blue palace building which is based on an engraving by Daniel Hopfer. Out the front of the building a pope seated beneath a red baldachin is crowning a new emperor. As is the case with several of the illustrations in the Splendor Solis, the coronation scene incorporates a number of details drawn from a woodcut in Hans Holbein the Younger’s series Bilder des Todes (Pictures of Death). Showing the emperor kissing the feet of the pope, Holbein’s woodcut “Der Bapst” (The Pope) signals the submissiveness of the secular world in the face of the church’s omnipotence. In the Splendor Solis, however, the emperor not only receives the crown with his head upright but is also endowed with the physiognomy of Charles v, who had just been crowned Holy Roman emperor in Bologna in 1530. This discovery is quite remarkable in an artistic sense insofar as the painter of the Splendor Solis took the liberty of updating the stereotypical pope and emperor featured in the original source of 1524-26 in order to capture the latest historical developments. Set within the angular niche of the inserted panel is a glass flask upon a green laurel wreath. Inside the flask, three birds – black, white and red – are fighting with one another. This renewed allusion to the three principal colours of alchemy is discussed in the text that precedes it. The painter copied the motif of the three fighting birds from the alchemical illuminated manuscript of the Aurora Consurgens. It symbolises the separation of matter by heating, its subsequent purification in the next stage of transmutation, and, as will be seen in the following miniature, its fusion into one bird with three heads.

[hamliet]

Has Attack on Titan always been plagued by a fascist ideology embedded in its story and characters?

It's anti-fascist and one of the most anti-fascist stories I've read--that said, it's ultimately a story centered on thematic questions of free will and what we owe each other as individuals who make up a society, a psychological dive into what it means to be human at both an individual and collective level, rather than critiquing political ideologies. Of course this plays into it, but it's not the main focus.

See MHA if you want an actual fascist ideology purported by a manga. But most people don't look that deep because cute stuff doesn't make them want to consider what the actual message is as much as edgier stuff does, and MHA's message is incredibly disturbing and honestly one of the most blatant examples I've ever seen, to the point where I genuinely wonder if Horikoshi is just burned out or actually red-pilled.

I've talked about my thoughts on fascism as it relates to both of these stories previously; you have a search function so please use it before sending me further asks on this topic, which given current world events, is very sensitive right now.

[hamliet]

Hope you are having a wonderful day! Just wanted to ask, what's your take on Rhaegar Targaryen? What kind of person do you perceive him as? GRRM has so many characters praise him but many of his actual actions were so shitty

Good question! My interpretation: he's a person.

No, but really. I think he is neither the conniving groomer many view him as, nor the heroic, romantic prince with a heart of gold. But I think he started out more as the heroic, romantic side than the other.

Do I think Rhaegar loved Lyanna? Yes, I genuinely do. I realize that take isn't popular but my guess is that it fits better with Martin's view of a Romantic world, and also fits better with Lyanna's character. That said, I also don't think Martin will ever clear it up and will leave the idea of whether this is love or not up for debate--because it can be debated. I guess I should say I think Lyanna and Rhaegar both believed they were in love and felt that way until they died. However--

However, love doesn't magically make the world better. This is the part where Martin's view takes a melancholy semi-deconstructionist look at Romanticism. Martin's MO in doing this, through other characters like Sansa, is showing us that fairy tale logic-- "knights are brave and faithful" "love saves the day" and "true power is kindness"--doesn't work on a daily level, but it doesn't mean there is no value to the ideals it teaches.

Idealism seems to be at the root of Rhaegar's character, honestly. He's kind of like Sansa, but if Sansa was still unwise as an adult with a lot more power and agency. Idealism of romantic love. Idealism of being a brave heroic king who fulfilled the prophecy to save the world. He fully believed in these things, and they made his life and the lives of everyone he loved worse.

Rhaegar is married to Elia and essentially ditches her and their two kids to run off with Lyanna, who is a teenager facing a marriage she doesn't want with someone who claims to love her but isn't faithful to her during betrothal, much less marriage. The tragedy of it is that Lyanna runs off with someone essentially doing the same thing to his wife that Lyanna didn't want to be done to her as Robert's wife.

Still, I think Rhaegar was probably genuinely fascinated with Lyanna when he found out she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and promised not to reveal her. Thus, true love was all that mattered, right? Except... that's not how the world works.

But did Rhaegar really love Lyanna or was he just using her for the prophecy? Again, I think why can't it be both? I do think the prophecy idea played a role in Rhaegar's motivations to pursue Lyanna. He wanted a third child and thought he had to have one for the prophecy, but Elia could not have more children physically without killing her.*

So, my thinking is that grinding to determine whether his motives were prophecy or purely love miss the point and negate the tragedy of the situation. He loved Lyanna but yes, he also saw opportunity and assumed destiny would guide him. And that hubris ensured that both Lyanna and Rhaegar died.

Rhaegar is an idealistic man who believes so strongly in his sense of purpose--a purpose greater than himself that genuinely will save people--that he forgets to look down and look around him at the life he's actually living and the lives around him in favor of the potential lives he could save. His hyper-focus on prophecy is his tragic flaw that brings about his downfall and death of so many people, and it didn't need to happen this way.

In focusing on a dream idealistic forbidden romance and coming child, he neglects his living wife and children, who are then assaulted and brutally murdered. Instead of true love idealistically triumphing, he actually loses to the man whom Lyanna did not love but who was betrothed to marry her, since Robert kills him. In his belief that the prophecy would be fulfilled through him, he forgets that he is himself human and all humans have weaknesses and die.

Rhaegar had the best of intentions but the worst of the worst of implementation, in other words. Or maybe more accurately Rhaegar was all about theory, and he forgot practice and everyone around him paid the price, particularly the innocents like Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys. The questions that stem from this drive many of our characters and are at the heart of the questions Martin wants his readers to ask.

And: his life wasn't entirely in vain, because his son Jon lives.

*(Aside--to his credit, Rhaegar does not force Elia to have sex and have another child even though he could have. Like, bare minimum yes, but it's also not a coincidence that we're told that Aerys the Mad King routinely brutally assaults Rhaegar's mother (and one of these attacks leads to Daenerys's birth) because in Westeros it's not assault if you're married. Side note: also not a coincidence that what isn't seen as assault but is leads to Dany while what is publicly seen as assault but isn't leads to Jon.

Even throughout Fire & Blood, we read about husbands who unquestionably love their wives having sex with them and conceiving kids strongly against medical advice--Robert and Alyssa, Jaehaerys and Alysanne, etc. Rhaegar doesn't do this, showing that he's trying to do less harm to others around him. But, he still humiliates Elia by taking off with Lyanna--and his actions do lead to her death and the death of their children. And even if they hadn't, there's an emotional toll. So, did he really do less harm, or more? These are the sorts of questions I think Martin wants his readers to ponder more than answer.)*